15 - Socrates without Plato: the Accounts of Aristophanes and Xenophon
In the first of several episodes on Socrates, Peter discusses his portrayals in "The Clouds" of Aristophanes and in the works of the historian Xenophon.
Themes:
• S. Ahbel-Rappe and R. Kamtekar (eds.), A Companion to Socrates (Oxford: Blackwell, 2005).
• D.R. Morrison, Bibliography of Editions, Translations and Commentary on Xenophon’s Socratic Writings, 1600-Present (Pittsburgh: 1988).
• W. Prior (ed.), Socrates: Critical Assessments of Leading Philosophers, 4 vols (London: 1996).
• D.K. O’Connor, “Socrates and Political Ambition: The Dangerous Game” in Proceedings of the Boston Area Colloquium in Ancient Philosophy 14 (1998), 31-52.
• M. Trapp, Socrates from Antiquity to the Enlightenment (Aldershot: 2007).
• P.A. Vander Waerdt (ed.), The Socratic Movement (Ithaca: 1994).
• Xenophon, Conversations of Socrates, trans. H. Treddenick and R. Waterfield (London: 1990).
Aristophanes, "The Clouds": online text
Comments
artistic sophistry
Fascinating to learn that the snobbery towards people who work for money started so long ago.
The question of whether or not art is more pure if done for virtue rather than commerce is a great way to liven up a really dull cocktail party.
So Socrates is responsible for para-artist-ism! It would be wonderful to go back and see how the western world would have evolved without Socratic virtue.
Thanks for giving me the info I needed for a guest blog on writing and the internet! I might have to start sending you royalties if I start making money of my writing. :)
Pacifist
HOw Can socrates be a Pacifist is he he was in the wars with Sparta..
In reply to Pacifist by jim
Pacifism
Yes, I agree - there's no reason to say he was a pacifist and he fought with distinction in the war. I didn't say that he was a pacifist, did I? I certainly hope not!
Figures
You said in the last episode that Plato was mind shattering smart. How do we know these people aren’t figures that have been exaggerated to the extreme. Instead of having a few very smart people how can it be certain that all these dialogues weren’t written by a team/school of people. So, instead of having Plato the genius you have a school of very bright minds in one collective union publishing books. Regardless those writing are some of the wisest things that can be read. But if people didn’t have such a high idol to look up to maybe the pursuit of ethical living wouldn’t feel so daunting.
In reply to Figures by chicken patty
Team Plato
Well, in a sense what you're saying is even true, in that there was a school gathered around Plato and they wrote works imitating his style (there are a number of extant works that are ascribed to Plato but thought by modern scholars to be by his followers). But there isn't any reason to doubt Plato wrote the dialogues: we have extensive historical evidence about Plato and his works, including not least from his student Aristotle who mentions Plato and engages with ideas from the dialogues. Plus, they hang together very well as an intellectual project. I agree that it is mind-bendingly impressive, but then so are the works of Shakespeare and Mozart. It happens sometimes.
socrates biographies
Thanks for the great podcast! It's a shame he lived at a time when you could be executed for impiety and teaching the youth to question everything. Any interesting biographies on him that you've read?
In reply to socrates biographies by Brendan Berney
Socrates
Well, the best biography is of course by Plato, in the Apology etc! But beyond that I would start with the Stanford Encyclopedia article recommended in the further reading list above.
Question
I really appreciate your work. I noticed that you don't have any modern philo. I was wondering if you could recommend me an equally good source for history of modern philo / philo that's missing here. Thank you!
In reply to Question by Gigi
Modern
Well, there is nothing like this podcast for modern philosophy, at least until I get there! Of course there are lots of handbooks, companions, and so on from major academic publishers. You could start with volumes from the Cambridge Companion series on various modern figures, for instance, or the Oxford Handbook of Philosophy in Early Modern Europe.
If their was video to go
If their was video to go along with this, that would be just the best.
Side Note : The history of Philosphy , the history of Science the history of Relgion. should really be three tought classes in highschool.
In reply to If their was video to go by F1278394766
Videos
Totally agree on the side note! As for videos, I have done some and boy oh boy are videos a pain compared to podcasts. So what I've done in that direction is not as extensive but there is a ten lecture series on women in ancient and medieval philosophy plus I did a series of short promos for this series, "History of Philosophy's Greatest Hits". All available on YouTube:
Peter's ten video series on Women Thinkers in Antiquity and the Middle Ages
Greatest Hits video: Socrates
This episode won't play on Spotify
Hi, just discovered this podcast and started listening from the beginning on spotify. Unfortunately, some episodes won't play no matter what I do. Tried to listen here, on the website, and it ain't working either. Does anyone know why it is happening to some episodes? So far, ep 15, 17 and 25 are the ones I couldn't listen to.
In reply to This episode won't play on Spotify by Rafael
Defective episodes
Hi there - Just tried on the site here and it seems to work. I have had this before where listeners reported a problem that then seemed to fix itself, so maybe try again. But if you still have trouble please let me know. Thanks for listening!
Translation
What is the best translation of the Clouds and of Xenophon?
Great work on the podcast
In reply to Translation by David A Fleissig
Translations
To be honest I’m not sure about the Aristophanes but I think the translation of Xenophon mentioned above under the further reading would be a good choice - affordable for one thing, and Waterfield is a reliable translator who has done a lot of ancient philosophical texts.
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