23. Amy Olberding on Confucian Ethics
In our final episode on classical Confucianism, our interview guest tells us about the surprising moral depth of the concept of "etiquette".
Themes:
• A. Olberding “The Consummation of Sorrow: An Analysis of Confucius’ Grief for Yan Hui,” Philosophy East and West 54 (2004), 279-301.
• A. Olberding “The Educative Function of Personal Style in the Analects,” Philosophy East and West 57 (2007), 357-74.
• A. Olberding “Dreaming of the Duke of Zhou: Exemplarism and the Analects,” Journal of Chinese Philosophy 35 (2008), 625-39.
• A. Olberding “'Ascending the Hall’: Demeanor and Moral Improvement in the Analects," Philosophy East and West 59 (2009), 503-22.
• A. Olberding and P.J. Ivanhoe (eds), Mortality in Traditional Chinese Thought (Albany: 2011).
• A. Olberding, Moral Exemplars in the Analects: The Good Person Is That (London: 2012).
• A. Olberding (ed.), Dao Companion to the Analects (New York: 2014).
• A. Olberding “Confucius’ Complaints and the Analects’ Account of the Good Life,” Dao: A Journal of Comparative Philosophy 12 (2013), 417-40.
• A. Olberding “From Corpses to Courtesy: Xunzi and the Defense of Etiquette," Journal of Value Inquiry 49 (2015), 145-59.
• A. Olberding “Etiquette: A Confucian Contribution to Moral Philosophy,” Ethics 126 (2016), 422-46.
• A. Olberding, The Wrong of Rudeness (New York: 2019).
Comments
Leeway
Great conversation! I smiled at the pun around 6:22 in your question on the possibility of improvisation in etiquette, whether any "leeway" is allowed. Not clear if that was intentional but very apposite wording!
In reply to Leeway by Dan Unger
Li-way
Ha, it's funny you mention that - it was not intentional but I noticed it too listening back later!
Subversions of Li
Greetings,
Great conclusion to a fascinating section.
Because of my own experience and practices, I am always looking for (and finding) parallels between Chinese and Indian philosophies and practices. ("Li" and "sadacara" are very similar concepts). Both cultures are also very hierarchal, often inflexibly so, and I am interested in challenges to that rigidity. Despite casteism, brahmanism, smartaism, and a host of rigid hierarchal rules and practices; in Indian philosophy there are strands of practices which reject or modify the social rigidity. Especially in certain devotional practices there is the idea of considering everyone to be one's social/spiritual superior and to offer respect to everyone, regardless of social pigeonholes. Was there anything like that in Chinese philosophy? Is Kong Qiu's offering of respect to the socially inferior music teacher related to that idea at all? Does the ability to over-ride social etiquette require some kind of other-worldliness in its philosophy (not sure how much of that there was in Confucianism) to enable that to happen? (or some radical political upheaval perhaps?)
Or am I just looking for parallels that don't really exist?
Thanks. Keep up the great work .
Sincerely,
Acarya dasa
In reply to Subversions of Li by Acarya dasa
Subversions
Hm, that's an interesting question. Of course by the end of the Han period you have Buddhism in China which will bring in its counter-aristocratic value system, but if we're talking about Warring States period thought then perhaps in the Daoists? Actually the Mohists might be the closest to what you are describing; for instance there is material in the Mozi about learning from craftspersons. But I think Confucianism is too bound up with social hierarchy to invite the kind of "subversiveness" you have in mind.
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