# 179 - Mohammed Rustom on Philosophical Sufism

Peter is joined by Mohammed Rustom in a discussion about Sufi authors including Ibn 'Arabī, al-Qūnawī, and Rūmī.

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• M. Rustom, “Is Ibn al-'Arabī’s Ontology Pantheistic?” *Journal of Islamic Philosophy* 2 (2006), 53-67.

• M. Rustom, “Approaches to Proximity and Distance in Early Sufism,” *Mystics Quarterly* 33 (2007), 1-25.

• M. Rustom, “The Metaphysics of the Heart in the Sufi Doctrine of Rumi.” *Studies in Religion* 37 (2008), 3-14.

• M. Rustom, *The Triumph of Mercy: Philosophy and Scripture in Mullā Ṣadrā* (Albany: 2012).

• M. Rustom (ed.), W.C. Chittick, *In Search of the Lost Heart: Explorations in Islamic** Thought* (Albany: 2012).

• M. Rustom, “Ibn 'Arabī’s Letter to Fakhr al-Dīn al-Rāzī: a Study and Translation.” *Oxford Journal** of Islamic Studies* 25 (2014).

Prof. Rustom's webpage with lots of resources on the Islamic intellectual tradition.

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## Sound quality again

Just to say that this interview was recorded over Skype so the sound quality is not up to the usual standard on interviews - but it isn't too bad.

## The beautiful game

Hi Peter

Sufist philosophy in the premier league

Challenging for the championship of belief

Defended stoutly by al-Quwaui

Inspirational poetical play by Rumi

The beautiful game

Gods essence the frame

Impregnated with divine goals

A cosmic shape with interchangeable roles

## Abd al-Qadir al-Jaza'iri?

First, the fan mail: I've been a keen listener since Plotinus, and I've enjoyed it all (in fact, having something good to listen to is the only thing that's brought me back to the gym, albeit intermittently).

Here's my question: after hearing you discuss Ibn Arabi's legacy with Professor Rustom, I was wondering if you had any plans to discuss Abd al-Qadir al-Jaza'iri (a.k.a. Emir Abdelkader) when the time comes. He's someone who engaged creatively with Ibn Arabi's ideas, and his life encapsulates a lot of the history of his period (he fought the French, ended up in late Ottoman Damascus, and posthumously became a nationalist icon).

## Abd al-Qahir

That's an interesting suggestion, thanks! I don't know if I will squeeze him in because the 19th c episode is a bit crowded (I wanted to get in later developments in the Ottoman realm, Iran and India). I'll see if I can fit him though.

## Mathematicians and Platonism.

I found this interview particularly fascinating, as I think that the way Dr Rustom described Ibn Arabi's approach to the Names of God as being very much the same as Mathematicians approach Mathematical objects.

Mathematicians often get the rough end of the stick. For example Leon Horsten writes in his article of the Philosophy of Mathematics in the Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy (http://stanford.library.usyd.edu.au/entries/philosophy-mathematics/):

Bernays observed that when a mathematician is at work she “naively” treats the objects she is dealing with in a platonistic way. Every working mathematician, he says, is a platonist (Bernays 1935). But when the mathematician is caught off duty by a philosopher who quizzes her about her ontological commitments, she is apt to shuffle her feet and withdraw to a vaguely non-platonistic position. This has been taken by some to indicate that there is something wrong with philosophical questions about the nature of mathematical objects and of mathematical knowledge.

I think the confusion comes due to the following types of exchanges between a Philosopher (P) and a Mathematician (M) - yes, it is a simplification and probably a little unfair to Philosophers.

P: So, are Mathematical objects just social conventions?

M: Umm, No.

P: So thinks like numbers are real?

M: Yes.

P: Can you show me one, like the number "three".

M: No - it is an abstract concept.

P: So it isn't material.

M: Correct.

P: It must be therefore an ideal form.

M: Sort of... (shuffles feet)

P: You are therefore a Platonist!!

M: If you say so

However, many Mathematicians (including myself) are Mathematical Realists, without being Platonists. Mathematicians do not consider Mathematical objects, such as number of Geometric figures, as having an ontological existence such as giraffes or Buster Keaton movies, but having an existance as relationships.

So I found Dr Rustom's explanation particularly useful.

## Mathematical objects

Thanks, that's a very interesting and unexpected connection. I agree that the forced choice between full-blown Godel style realism and conceptualism is a false dichotomy that is often forced, not just on mathematicians, but on people who want to believe in other abstract objects (minds, universals, etc). Can you say a bit more about your solution though? I mean, if mathematical objects, like numbers, are relations, what are the relata? Like, if the number 4 is a relation, then it is a relation between two other things X and Y: what are X and Y?

## Number

Yes - I agree that anyone postulating abstract objects has the same difficulty. I consider that the Mathematical objects I work with are real: and I am in the fortunate position of having some of thme realised in the form of ciphers.

The question you pose about the relationship of numbers to each other is probably the most difficult of questions to answer. My initial thoughts concerned geometric objects such as triangles and circles. These are essentially descriptions of relationships - and then by focussing on the relationship at an abstract level one can derive true statements about those relationships. Most Mathematical statements are of the form: If x then y.

As for number - the Mathematician Leopold Kronecker (1823-1891 see: http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/history/Biographies/Kronecker.html for biography) said "God created the integers, all else is the work of man."; the integers being whole numbers greater than 0.

There a several ways in which numbers can be thought of, and contructed. However, contructing them ex nihilo is a little difficult.

The Intuitionism of Brouwer asserts that all Mathematical objects are constructions - the the integer 4 has as relationship to the prior construction. This leads to a reduction to the first object, which is usually unity or 1. This approach, however, recognises that real Mathematicians are finite

In the 20th century, the construction of the integers was also derived from set theory - as is done in Whitehead et al. "Principia Mathematica". In this, one starts the the null set {}, i.e. nothing. Then one has the set of the null set: thus, one associated the set of the null set with the number 1 - since it has one element. Then a set can be constructed of the null set and the set of the null set, which has 2 elements. This is associated with the number 2. This process can be repeated for all the integers. In this case, 4 stands in relation to 3 as being derived from 3, and 5 as producing 5 in the next step.

Even in Ancient Greece there is something of this type of construction. Numbers were represented by lengths, which could be arbitrary: 2 was simply 1 added to itself. Multiplication was the area defined by a rectangle defined by the lengths of the size of the numbers. The Greek Mathematicians were able to develop a rich understanding of numbers.

What these approaches have in common is that the focus on relationships between the numbers: they also all suffer from the problem of starting from nothing, and being a little weak at that point.

I will have to read Ibn 'Arabī to work out if he is able to assist at this point.

## Starting from nothing

Thanks - my philosophy of maths isn't good enough to build on what you're saying, but I would add two thoughts. First, you may like Eriugena, too. He is an early medieval thinker who explicitly says that God's creating things "from nothing (ex nihilo)" means creating them "from Himself" since He is nothing, in the sense of beyond being. We might even get to Eriugena before the end of the year since he'll be early in the medieval episodes.

Second, I like your point that math is mostly about hypothetical reasoning: if X then Y. I actually think philosophy is like that too, a lot of the time. That is, philosophers think about what would follow if one were to make a certain assertion: what objections could arise, or what else might follow from it? So for instance what are the implications (or costs and benefits) of a certain view of free will, say, or for that matter of the status of numbers.

## Chinese connection

I found the part about Chinese attempts to explain Ibn 'Arabi with the help of Confucianism fascinating. Prof. Rustom spoke about how it's only very recently that work has been done on this. Where might some of this work have been published?

## Re: Chinese connection

Dear Chike,

The first place to look would be Sachiko Murata's "Chinese Gleams of Sufi Light", as well as "The Sage Learning of Liu Zhi: Islamic Thought in Confucian Terms" by Murata, William Chittick, and Tu Weiming.

"Rectifying God's Name: Liu Zhi's Confucian Translation of Monotheism and Islamic Law" by James Frankel is also a very useful study.

For the wider historical and cultural context, see "The Dao of Muhammad: A Cultural History of Muslims in Late Imperial China" by Zvi Ben-Dor Benite.

Kristian Petersen's website gives access to his articles on Chinese Sufism, and also includes information about his fascinating forthcoming books on the topic: http://drkristianpetersen.com/

It is interesting to note that it was not only the school of Ibn 'Arabi that played an important role in Chinese-language Islam. Sunni rational theology was also made available in Chinese. In "The Sage Learning of Liu Zhi", the authors demonstrate how important the fourteenth-century Ash'arite theologian 'Adud al-Din Iji's "al-Mawaqif fi 'ilm al-kalam" was for Chinese Muslim scholars, particularly the seventeenth-century author Liu Zhi. Liu calls Iji's book "Gezhi quanjing" ("The Complete Classic of Investigating and Extending"), and draws on Iji's discussions on cosmology quite a bit.

(Incidentally, select English translations from Iji's "Mawaqif", along with translations from Sayyid Sharif Jurjani's commentary upon this text, can be found in volume 3 of "An Anthology of Philosophy in Persia", edited by Seyyed Hossein Nasr and Mehdi Aminrazavi).

Hope these leads help.

Mohammed

## Thanks very much!

I greatly appreciate the references.